As promised, the most recent political argument about GoW. Note to new members: your opinions aren’t welcome and we’ll keep arguing internally no matter what you think. This sort of logic is why I left in the first place.
<Paradox> 75th Trombone: Looking around the forums
<Paradox> 75th Trombone: And one word pops into my head: BUREAUCRACY
<Paradox> 75th Trombone: I see a very unfriendly announcement about needing Guild Representatives. I see stuff about reorganizing the guild and voting to remove someone from a the post of Councilor of S&V, whatever that means, and everywhere I look it’s red tape and middle-managing
<Lontahv> Rather than dealing with the door for now.
<Hoikas> Tell him to shut the fuck up, bastard
<Paradox> 75th Trombone: So what’re the chances of them waking up and realizing that no one gives a crap about Robert’s Rules of Order and just getting to some Writing?
<Paradox> Except that he’s right…
<Hoikas> no one asked for his fucking opinion
<Paradox> The forums are a mess, and we’re not giving any sort of useful information to new members
<Paradox> and your attitude doesn’t help either… “we didn’t ask his opinion, so he should shut up”… what a nice way to greet new members
<Hoikas> I’m not greeting him.
<Lontahv> uhm… he’s not really right about everything.
<Hoikas> I just didn’t ask his opinion
<Paradox> Why are we still arguing about these useless politics?
<Hoikas> I don’t even know who the hell he is
<Hoikas> if he wants to fix it, then tell him to fix it
* Hoikas is obviously not in the best of moods
<Hoikas> I don’t know, post on the forum?
<Hoikas> Then I can opt out of his opinion
<Paradox> Nobody even knows what’s going on… it basically looks like BAD is the person in control of everything
<Paradox> 75th Trombone: Yeah, that’s good. who’s in charge, this BAD guy?
<Lontahv> Where is this? CC?
<Lontahv> hmm *runs there*
<BAD> Heh, Ilove hw someone can walk in and criticize the GOW and we got one person buying completely into it and one person getting pissed off about it.
<BAD> Oh wait
<BAD> Now I get the joke
<Paradox> I thought you wanted to make changes so that things could get done? I don’t see anything getting done…
<BAD> Well, Dox, it sometimes takes time to get people organized.
<Hoikas> Well, I’m sitting on my ass doing nothing like how most seem to like it
<BAD> So you can tell your friend, that the GOW is doing the best it can with what was given to it.
<BAD> Which is nothing
<Hoikas> whenever anyone tries to do anything it’s hell on earth
<Hoikas> the power is in the hands of the Reps…
<Hoikas> If they opt to do nothing, then nothing shall be done
<BAD> What do you want done Dox?
<BAD> You left the administration of theGOW.
<Paradox> yeah, because it entirely distracts from the actual goals of GoW
* SFT (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #writers
<Paradox> The point is to build Ages… and to work at helping other build Ages
<BAD> That’s a crock of shit.
<Lontahv> Shrinking the GuildCouncil was the worst thing I can think of. >.>
* SFT is now known as SeventyFifthTbn
* Hoikas sets mode +m #writers
<Paradox> yo 75
* Hoikas sets mode -m #writers
<BAD> Come to bash us in person?
<SeventyFifthTbn> Hmm, I didn’t mean to bash anyone.
<BAD> Well you seem to be doing a ood job of it.
<Paradox> Oh wonderful BAD… how welcoming you are to new members who have a few comments
<Paradox> “come to bash us in person?”
<SeventyFifthTbn> Well, y’know, things happen. Thought a newbie’s perspective on how welcoming a community is or is not might be appreciated on some level.
<BAD> Well, I am sorry, Dox, but I call things s I see them.
<Hoikas> certainly sounded like bashing, and you relayed it to us like “oooo, look at what’s been said behind your back”
<SeventyFifthTbn> Not that I intended anyone to see my CC comments anyway.
<Lontahv> >.> Just keep this civil. We are not the GuildOfSlackers even though we had a blood transfusion from them. :P
<Paradox> I’m planning to post this log FYI…
<BAD> Well, your intentions seem to be to tell everyone in CC that the GOW is ran by me, and that I do a terrible job.
<Lontahv> BAD isn’t even a Councilor yet…
<BAD> Dox, you do as you please, you always do anyways.
<SeventyFifthTbn> No. I asked if you ran it because I saw your name at the top of some administratey threads.
<Lontahv> He’d just a MOD.
<Paradox> Well as far as I can tell, admins should at least be open to a few criticisms
<BAD> Dox, don’t act naive.
<SeventyFifthTbn> And I didn’t say you were bad at anything, just that your tone was harsh, and you’re not exactly proving me wrong here.
<Kato> SFT: I just want to be constructive here, I’m not trying to take sides or anything–but how do you think we should run the GoW differently then we do now?
<BAD> Your not proving me wrong either.
<SeventyFifthTbn> I don’t know how you run the GoW. It seems a bit unfathomable at the moment, to be honest. I just highly doubt that any subgroup of the already-small Uru community needs as many layers of bureaucracy as I saw on my first five minutes on the forum tonight.
<Lontahv> Yes. The GoW has been wracking their brains about what should be done. Maybe you could take a stand on how it should be run. It’s very hard to know what people want when we just hear what they don’t want.
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<Hoikas> Well, people don’t like one person in power.
<SeventyFifthTbn> Well here’s what I want: Forum admin, maybe two levels of moderators, like other forums. What more do you need? And that’s an honest question
<Hoikas> People all want to be able to vote on everything
<Hoikas> When you put stuff up for vote, no one votes
<Paradox> Adam > People don’t care… as you’ve seen demonstrated
<Hoikas> we’re damned either way
<BAD> We have been trying to organize the administration to be as out of the way as possible. It’s been a struggle with the amount of differing opinions.
<SeventyFifthTbn> I mean, if people just ignore the bureaucracy and do cool stuff regardless of it, why not just ditch the bureaucracy, have some moderators, and not go to all the trouble?
<Paradox> Why do we need councillors? *What* do they accomplish?
<Hoikas> then we have all of the other Guilds bashing us >.>
<Hoikas> like I said… Damned
<SeventyFifthTbn> Are other Guilds like this?
<SeventyFifthTbn> Oh wait, I think i get it now
<BAD> THeir jobs are outlined.
<Paradox> I preferred it when it was the Guild of Anarchy
<Paradox> BAD > and are any of them doing their jobs?
<BAD> Dox, no kidding.
<Tahg> have you considered the bridge in Teledahn?
<SeventyFifthTbn> This is all borne of an effort to model real-life guilds on the D’ni story.
<Hoikas> Well, there’s nothing really to do…
<Paradox> Wait… how can they be doing their jobs when you’re missing a councillor?
<Lontahv> The GoMa is _so_ like this that it makes us look like anachists.
<Tahg> I think that’s a physical that you have to kick, to unstick it
<BAD> Yes, Kato is, andHoikas is still involved with developing tools.
<BAD> That leaves the open slot.
<Hoikas> (actually Hoikas isn’t… He just watches right now)
<Tahg> and it definitely rotates on an axis
<SeventyFifthTbn> I get it. This is all an attempt to be an actual government like people imagine D’ni was
<Justin> I’ll have to check that out
<Paradox> 75 > bingo
<BAD> SFT, yeah you found us out.
<Hoikas> can we stop referencing Duck Knee for a damn minute
<Lontahv> no. :P
<Paradox> Adam > maybe if it wasn’t relevant
<Paradox> but it is
<Hoikas> I hate it when people bring that crap up when it’s obviously not applicable
<Hoikas> like it’s N/A now
<BAD> Well guess I’ll put back on my vilains hat and skulk off.
<Paradox> because people “expect” this sort of structure
<Hoikas> yes, but that has nothing to do with d’ni
<Lontahv> Even if they bash it.
<BAD> Dox, your the one with expectations.
<Paradox> I had expectations that this might work out without falling on its face in the mud…
<BAD> Wll so far it hasn’t.
<Hoikas> which it has
<Paradox> instead I see less and less actually happening
<Hoikas> (not fallen)
<BAD> Ages are being created? Yes or no?
<Hoikas> Really? I see a good bit happening.
<Lontahv> For instance: Who would admin the GoW Uru server when Cyan releases the code? Are dictator-admins better than elected officials?
<Paradox> BAD > yes…, at GoW… not so much
<BAD> Toos are being improved? Yes or no?
<Hoikas> Maybe a bit of a slowdown here and there, but that’s only natual
<SeventyFifthTbn> How many active members does the GoW forum have?
<Paradox> The tools have nothing to do with GoW… tools are separate
<Lontahv> Dox> They have to do the the GoW
<BAD> So waht you are saying is that the GOW has no use?
<Hoikas> Then why is their development so GoW-central?
<BAD> Then lets shut the board down and see how many new ages get made.
<SeventyFifthTbn> How many active members does the GoW forum have?
<Paradox> The tools are used by the GoW… their development happens regardless of GoW
<BAD> Over 600
<Hoikas> BAD: active…
<BAD> mombers, and probably 50 or so active.
<Paradox> he said active…
<SeventyFifthTbn> 50 active members!! How many representatives are you trying to elect?
<BAD> depends on what you consider active.
<BAD> They are not elected.
<Hoikas> Paradox: What’s the point in developing a tool that no one will use?
<SeventyFifthTbn> Okay, appoint?
<Paradox> I don’t
<BAD> Did you actually read any of the info?
<Paradox> I develop a tools that I will use
<Paradox> if someone else finds it useful, good for them
<Hoikas> well, that’s you
* Zrax seconds that
<Hoikas> and Zrax
<BAD> dox, you personal stuff is just that
<Tahg> same here
<Tahg> well, I don’t actually develop tools…
<Zrax> I’ll respond to other people’s input on my tools, but even if I’m the only one using them, I’ll keep making them >.>
<Paradox> Adam > me and Zrax and Tahg… who are the only people actively doing *any* tool work at the moment
<Tahg> but if I did, they would be foremost for my own use
<BAD> Except for tagh
<BAD> You just don’t getit Dox.
<Lontahv> I develop tools to help the community. Currently, I have the tools I’d use. I want to make tools others with find easy to use.
<BAD> YOur fighting a battle that has no pint
<Paradox> and what are you fighting for?
<Tahg> people will always complain, so I tend to just not cater to them in the first place
<BAD> And ou pick a time when I am on a crappy keyboard to do it.
<BAD> I am not fighting
<SeventyFifthTbn> Okay, you have 13 “representatives” and are asking for more, when the site has 50 active members.
<SeventyFifthTbn> I have to go, see y’all later.
* SeventyFifthTbn has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”)
<Tahg> GoW has more than that doesn’t it?
<BAD> See ya
<Hoikas> bad bye :)
<Lontahv> BAD is standing up the the GoW IMO… whatever the GoW is. :P
<Tahg> idk, I can’t really tell what active means
<BAD> But why correct him?
<Zrax> Tahg: people who post more than you and I :P
<Hoikas> that’s a good definition >.>
<BAD> I was saying bye to sft
<Tahg> I post once in a blue moon
<Lontahv> Zrax is actually quite active. The quality of his posts should be taken into consideration. :P
<BAD> Yet you hang out on the GOW chat almost constantly.
<Tahg> this is our main channel
<Tahg> if you hadn’t noticed, we often don’t talk about GoW things here
<Zrax> True, but that’s also just where we happen to be… If not here, it would be #PRP or #libPlasma or one of the others
<BAD> THis channel is for Writers.
<Tahg> only when we have company
<Tahg> like now
<Tahg> right, that’s what I was saying Zrax
<BAD> Whatever, the point is you help out so you are at least passing members f the GOW>
<Lontahv> I wish the GoW would stop getting bombed. If we can change our form so we can keep doing what we’re doing with less flames I’d be very happy.
<BAD> If you didn’t at lest have a passing interest in the group, you wouldn’t help out
<Tahg> I don’t help out GoW
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<Paradox> I have an interest in Plasma, building tools, and building Ages… which can happen with or without the GoW
<BAD> It’s not important, I don’t care how the group is ran.
<BAD> Dn’t kid yourselves.
<Paradox> it happened at COBBS, Alcugs, TNT, AB… I can build Ages whether GoW exists or not
<BAD> Then do that somewhere else.
<BAD> Don’t post on the forum and don’t answer peoples questions in here
<Lontahv> I think the main divide is “The GOW” and its members. I try to help its members.
<BAD> If you don’t like the GOW than wh do you do that?
<Tahg> I help people when I have a suggestion :\
<Tahg> I don’t care about affiliation
<BAD> Right, but you don’t hae to do that.
<Tahg> no, I don’t
<BAD> Right, so you don’t hate theGOW.
<Tahg> there are lots of things we don’t have to do, but they are nice things and we do them anyway
<BAD> You like helping people out on the site.
<Tahg> when did I say that?
<BAD> You didn’t, but yu guys are acting like the GOW is some kind of malevolent thing.
<Tahg> the group is immaterial to me, personally
<Tahg> I help out people, not groups
<Hoikas> still, you usually end up doing so through the group.
<BAD> That’s very zen of you, but that is nto how things work usually.
<Lontahv> The GoW isn’t important. The people of the GoW staying around and interested is. If the GoW (however imperfect) breaks down the people will scatter.
<BAD> So imagine their was no GOW, who would you help out?
<Tahg> I don’t visit many forums these days
<Paradox> BAD > I would keep helping out AB
<Tahg> I would help out here
<BAD> the two or three people in this room?
<Hoikas> This room is the GoW however
<Tahg> that’s 99% of who I help out anyway
<BAD> The GOW draws others in to build ages.
<Paradox> Tahg hasn’t been a community person since 2004-ish >.>
* Hoikas points to the /topic
<Paradox> BAD > so it AB
<Tahg> this channel just happens to be #writers
<Tahg> must I talk somewhere else to seem impartial?
<BAD> Yes Dox, and now where are those members?
<BAD> In the GOW.
<Tahg> I talk here because we just happen to meet on this channel
<Paradox> On GoW… because AB was shut down and partially merged with GoW
<BAD> You guys just love to be in your impartial little worlds.
<Lontahv> Bah… why do we need a damn guild anyway. If we weren’t a guild we could just be ourselves. It’s this darned “guild” title that makes people expect things.
<Tahg> we’ve had several in the past, and likely will have others in the future
<Hoikas> Tahg: But this is still the GoW Channel, so you’re helping people through the GoW
<Paradox> Lon > partly… yes
<Hoikas> but if you don’t want to see it that way, then fine
<Hoikas> I’m tired of this idiotic argument
<BAD> Well i the real world when you support something, you show acceptance of it.
<Hoikas> it’s like arguing why the color blue was named blue.
<Tahg> I don’t consider Dox, Zrax, Lon, Nad, Adam to be members of the GoW or any other guild
<BAD> It is.
<Tahg> they are fellow programmers
<BAD> Tht’s great
<Paradox> BAD > so Tahg is automatically a GoW-helper just because you say so?
<Lontahv> Look, we wouldn’t be arguing if Cyan hadn’t re-born the guilds. THIS IS WHY DUNNY DIED. >.<
<Hoikas> the toilet is dead?
<Paradox> Tahg is H’uru… H’uru is not the GoW
<BAD> wow, it’s neck deep in here.No he is a GOW helper, BECAUSE he helps people on the GOW!
<vaaht> dox isn’t standard GoW o.o
<Hoikas> OH TEH NOES! I’ve gotta shit!
<Paradox> BAD > so does Andylegate
<Paradox> so do a whole bunch of other people who aren’t Gow
<Paradox> Is MarkD now GoW because he helped me once?
<BAD> Andy IS a member of the GOW!
<Zrax> You can help out a guild without necessarily being a member… I help out one of the Catholic churches in town sometimes, but that doesn’t make me Catholic >.>
<Paradox> Andy would consider himself a member of GoMa
<Paradox> … so because of a single email, MarkD is a GoW member? o.O
<BAD> zrax> The GOW accepts anyone whohelps out. They are all considered members.
<Paradox> “The GOW accepts” *who* is “The GoW”?
<Tahg> if I had to be part of a guild, I’d consider myself part of GoIM
<BAD> Has he posted ot the forum?
<Hoikas> The GoW is not a person :P
<Paradox> But it’s run by people
<Zrax> Also, guilds are not exclusive… Being a member of one does not mean you can’t also be a member of another
<Paradox> How else could it “accept”
<BAD> Zrax, of course.
<Lontahv> Yes! His name is GuildOfWriters and his name is red. ;P
<Hoikas> it is a collective group of people working toward or supporting the creation of ages
<Paradox> “They are all considered members” By whom?
<Paradox> I certainly don’t consider MarkD a GoW member
<Tahg> what is this argument about anyway?
<Paradox> nor do I consider Tahg a GoW member
<BAD> Dox, youreally like plaing dumb don’t ou.
<Zrax> If the people of the guild accept contributors as members, that’s their own right and privelege, but that doesn’t mean one is required to consider themselves part of said guild
<Hoikas> Tahg: <Hoikas> it’s like arguing why the color blue was named blue.
<Paradox> Tahg > at this point, your guess is a good as mine… we started with some criticisms… and now we’re defining what it means to be a GoW member
<BAD> It’s simple.
<BAD> If I had the power, I would shutthe wole GOW down.
<Lontahv> I don’t really know. What is a damn guild anyway… looks to me that “guild” is another name for “sect” or faction. And ya know what… having factions and sects isn’t the greatest thing. :P
<Paradox> BAD > and then what would you do?
<BAD> Let you ake over.
<Paradox> Oh, thanks
<BAD> You seem to know everything.
<BAD> Please, show us how it is done.
<BAD> What would you do if he GOW did not exist?
<Paradox> As I’ve already said at least 5 times… I would be back at COBBS or Alcugs or TNT or AB
<BAD> Doing wha?
<vaaht> BAD> so, if I manage to model a single teacup for someone, then I’m automatically GoW, even though I consider myself GoL (Guild of Linguists)?
<Paradox> If GoW didn’t exist, those would all still exist
<Paradox> Writing tools to build Ages
<Paradox> as I have been for the past 4 years
<Tahg> my work on Uru existed long before I knew about the GoW
<BAD> Well, cobbs has been quiet for a couple years now… SO how would that help you?
<Paradox> vaaht > according to BAD, yes…
<Zrax> s/knew about the GoW/the GoW existed/
<vaaht> what an idiot
<Tahg> the point is we DON”T NEED A GROUP/FORUM to continue are work
<BAD> You know what? YOu guys can ave your little party
<BAD> You don’t.
<Tahg> how come you don’t understand taht we do this for ourselves?
<BAD> Selfish pricks.
<BAD> I understand it
<Lontahv> We need a forum. We don’t need a title that gets us burned.
<Paradox> IRC > Forums
<Zrax> If we did it purely for ourselves, we wouldn’t share our work
<BAD> Thank you Zrax.
<Lontahv> I’m going to go off for a bit.
<Tahg> yes, but if we waited for an audience, we would have the work done that we do now
<BAD> An audience?
* Lontahv is now known as Lontahv|afk
<Tahg> other people to use the tools we make
<BAD> is your hed really that far up your ass?
<Tahg> what are you talking about?
<BAD> So everyone else is cattle o you?
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<BAD> they don’t help your work?
<Tahg> wt* are you saying??!
<BAD> You don’t need other programers, and feedback?
<Tahg> we do
<BAD> It’s best you are alone i your efforts?
<Tahg> we have our group
<Paradox> and we have those here
<BAD> Yes insular group.
<BAD> Very productive.
<Hoikas> yet the vast majority of the users are *not* here
<Tahg> we don’t need nonprogrammers to motivate us to program
<BAD> I didn’t say you did.
<BAD> Don’t put words in my mouth.
<Paradox> Don’t put words in ours
<Tahg> what are you getting at then, cause that certainly was what it seemed like to me
<BAD> I haven’t.
<BAD> I asked questions
<BAD> I am getting at that you have benefited from the people you seem to have no interest in.
* RIUM (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #writers
<Tahg> how so?
<BAD> Never mind.
<BAD> I am done with this.
<BAD> Forget the whol thing.
<Paradox> @RIUM > the log upto a few seconds ago is on my blog… if you want to catch up >.>
<BAD> Who brought this up anyways?
<Zrax> Not having interest in a group does not mean that you don’t have interest in it’s members… I bring up the church from earlier — the reason I help out there is because several of its members are friends of mine
<Paradox> Hoikas IIRC… after I posted some comments from a new member
<BAD> Oh yeah, Dox did.
<Tahg> this is *exactly* why I don’t visit the forums much, becuase of all the bickering that goes on
<Hoikas> what is, the circus where you bring in everyone to watch the stunts?
<Paradox> sure Adam, if that’s how you see it
<Hoikas> it’s exactly what you’re making it
<BAD> Yeah Tahg it’s constantly like tis.
<Tahg> I have an interest in things that interest me, “politics” as I call this all, does not normally interest me
<Hoikas> telling us “Oooh, look at what 75th is saying behind your back.” then calling him in here
<Hoikas> now you’re calling RIUM in here
<Paradox> I’m not calling anyone in
<BAD> Tahg, wht does a mind like yoursfind interesting?
<Tahg> I like to program
<Paradox> and I’m willing to post the log of CC as well if you’d like
<Tahg> and so I do
<RIUM> hmm? I just came in here ’cause I heard people were in here :)
<Hoikas> If you *really* wanted to make a point, then you would have relayed the message in a less derogatory fashion
<BAD> I am sure ox and his friends are having a good oldlaugh t our exense.
<Zrax> RIUM: Good timing, LOL
<Tahg> when I see people post with programming issues, I help them
<Hoikas> Well then maybe I was mistaken, RIUM
<Tahg> it’s as simple as that
<vaaht> hoikas> shush, we came in here of our own volition <.<
<Hoikas> but when I see “<Paradox> @RIUM > the log upto a few seconds ago is on my blog… if you want to catch up >.>” I think we’re being ganged up on
<Hoikas> vaaht: You were in here beforehand :P
<BAD> Well when Dox sees a problem…..
<RIUM> But if you’d prefer me to not be here… o.o
<BAD> Your welcome here Rium
<Paradox> I saw criticisms that I thought you might be interested in knowing so that you could look at what new members see when they join GoW
<Hoikas> Never said I didn’t
<vaaht> nads and/or doxy invited me a little while ago, and I came in because I’d *eventually* like to make small contributions, but I’m mostly going to listen for a bit so I’m not a newbie nuisance <.<
<Paradox> but apparently you don’t care what new members see
<Hoikas> Paradox: Do you know what I saw when you relayed that?
<Paradox> and your reaction to criticism is “<Hoikas> Tell him to shut the fuck up, bastard”
<vaaht> hoikas> I also started listening because I heard doxy was arguing with an idiot <.<
<Hoikas> “Oooh, look what people are saying behiond your back.”
<Tahg> we don’t consider anyone to be a nuisance just because they ask questions
<BAD> Dox, I know for a fact you don’t care either, so what’s your deal?
<Hoikas> And I do not appreciate that or people talking behind my back.
<Hoikas> So what kind of reaction did you expect?
<Paradox> Would you rather I talked about you behind your back and didn’t tell you?
<Hoikas> Me to fall to the floor begging for forgiveness and what I can do to fix the ailing problem?
<Paradox> I can do that too if you’d prefer
<BAD> Heh, yeah, why change a habit?
<Hoikas> You tell it to my face.
<Paradox> and no, I don’t expect you to remedy the problem istantly
<vaaht> hoikas> as far as I know, doxy didn’t say anything about you <.<
<Hoikas> You tell it to me in a constructive way also
<Tahg> what *is* the problem anyway?
<BAD> Who knows?
<Hoikas> vaaht: I didn’t say dox was
<vaaht> uhm, you implied it <.<
<Hoikas> I said dox made it look like 75th was
<Paradox> So new members are supposed to magically find this room?
<Hoikas> You’re reading too much into my statements
<vaaht> okay, hoikas, BAD, doxy, can you please stop your arguing for one second?
<Hoikas> New members should post or PM their issues
<BAD> THis has turned into a who is more stupid debate
<Tahg> can’t we just get back to building ages, or making tools, or whatever it is that we normally do then?
<BAD> Go ahead.
<Hoikas> Not randomly flood them somewhere and have someone quote them
<Paradox> I at least expected that the site admins could consider what new members might see as their first experience on GoW
<vaaht> as someone who has only ever been involved with mysterium for like…half a year, and otherwise has lurked in this community for a while…
<vaaht> honestly, all the bickering and flaming and calling names and pointing fingers…it’s super annoying
<BAD> Yeah keep going with that angle DOx, your on the high ground….
<vaaht> that is why I left the mysterium committee
<Paradox> and this is why I left the GoW politics
<vaaht> shut up BAD
<BAD> vaaht, Dox caused this.
<Paradox> Yep, all my fault
<Tahg> and why I left the forums almost entirely
<vaaht> yeah, yeah, call someone who cares
<BAD> vaaht, your not helping.
<Paradox> like everything that ever goes not according to your master plan
<vaaht> honestly, this is the reason I *don’t* get involved in the community <.,
<vaaht> * <.<
<BAD> Master plan?
<vaaht> because you guys can’t figure out how to get along
<Hoikas> “<vaaht> honestly, all the bickering and flaming and calling names and pointing fingers…it’s super annoying”
<Zrax> <vaaht> honestly, all the bickering and flaming and calling names and pointing fingers…it’s super annoying
<BAD> Please, expalin that one to me Dox?
<Hoikas> but look what you’re doing
* Zrax agrees with vaaht’s statement
<vaaht> and honestly, with the amount of bickering, I would rather be *outside* of the main community, than in it amongst all this bickering <.<
<BAD> vaaht, good oint
<vaaht> BAD> as far as I can tell, you’re in the main community and with the GoW
<vaaht> hoikas sounds like he is too
<BAD> This is actually my fault, now that I think about it.
<vaaht> I know doxy is not
<Paradox> BAD > well there’s a misconception that you’re the admin of the forum… you came in and decided to shuffle all of the structure around, you nearly appointed yourself as head of everything…
<vaaht> and I have no reason to see otherwise besides this conversation since I have never bothered with the politics
<BAD> Heh, yeah that must mean I have sme kind of master plan.
<vaaht> anyways, that’s all I had to say
<BAD> vaaht> So your saying you have no idea what this is about? So you feel that your interjections are helping?
<Hoikas> Paradox: Can you define “you nearly appointed yourself as head of everything…”
<Hoikas> I’m not sure what that’s in reference to.
<BAD> Dox is pissed that I may get a councilor position.
<BAD> THat is what this is all about.
<vaaht> BAD> I am saying all I’ve heard from GoW is problems, so I have never bothered getting involved
<BAD> So it’s my fault
<Paradox> I’m mad that you basically came in and obliterated two councillow positions
<vaaht> and also, that mysterium has always been the exact same way
<BAD> And there’s a bit of truth.
<vaaht> so I have no faith in the ability of this *community* to work together
<vaaht> I have faith in a few small groups doing great things
<BAD> vaaht, shut up yourself.
<BAD> Your not helping at all.
<vaaht> and honestly, only a few of those people are in here, but I won’t name names
<Hoikas> Paradox: why diodn’t you vent this during the restructure
<BAD> Dox, I have no master plan, I try to help out, and people have asked me to do so.
<vaaht> BAD> yes, I’m sure my call for you guys to take a deep breath and calm down is so terrible <.<
<Hoikas> (or maybe you did, I just remember you giving up)
<Paradox> IIRC I was halfway across the country during most of the restructure
<Paradox> and I never even saw the restructure document… it went from Lontahv to Trylon to Bad
<Hoikas> vaaht: You’re doing a good job of it by calling people idiots and telling them to shut up
<BAD> You told meto shut up, and you have said you have no ideas what’s going on, yet you think you are some kind fo voice of reason?
<Hoikas> Paradox, now we’re getting somewhere…
<Hoikas> I know the document was posted
<vaaht> hoikas> because you and BAD are the ones that keep flaming
<Hoikas> Lemme check the timeframe
<BAD> It was voted on Dox, and it was discussed a lot before that.
<vaaht> I suggest *everyone* step away from this chat for about 10 minutes, take a deep breath, and come back and discuss this calmly
<Paradox> It’s quite possible that it was posted and I overlooked it… that would have been a mistake on my part
<Hoikas> vaaht: I love how I’m suddenly flaming when the only person I flamed was 75
<vaaht> otherwise, all you guys are just yelling for no reason
<BAD> vaaht, stay out of it it is not your concern.
<Hoikas> and it could have been on ours too Dox
<Paradox> Hoiaks > what did 75 do to deserve flaming?
<Hoikas> that’s why I’m checking
<Hoikas> back to the whole behind the back ordeal
<BAD> 75th, was a victim of you posting his words here.
<vaaht> BAD> it *is* my concern because I would like to contribute one day <.<
<Hoikas> Re: Proposal structure upgrade
<Hoikas> Postby BAD on Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:01 pm
<BAD> If you approched it in a different fasion we probably could have avoided this arguemen.\
<vaaht> but at this rate, it’s not going to be in your big group that can’t get along
<Paradox> I posted it exactly as 75 had posted it in CC
<Hoikas> that was the first post of BAD’s document
<BAD> vaaht, seriously, stay out of this.
<vaaht> what are you going to do to me if I don’t?
<vaaht> kick me?
<vaaht> ban me?
* Hoikas sets mode +m #writers
<Paradox> yeah vaaht… we don’t like new members… stay out of this
<Hoikas> sigh can we discuss the real issue now?
<BAD> You could have softened the blow, at least, or PMed it to Hoikas or Kato.
<Paradox> Kato saw it
<Paradox> and agreed with it
<Hoikas> okay, so that was the date of the first document
<Hoikas> I can post a screenie of the post
* Hoikas gives voice to ddfreyne Lontahv|afk RIUM
<BAD> Hey Dox we seem to be making some headay, whydon’t you turn the sarcasm off?
<Paradox> Adam > I believe you… I admit that I probably overlooked it or didn’t pay much attentio nto it when it was posted
<Hoikas> Paradox: when were you accross the country?
<Kato> what did i see?
<Paradox> vaaht: can you tell them from me, I’m glad that their group is so special that they exclude the newcomers?
<Paradox> Hoikas > June/July… long before then
<BAD> Dox, stop instigating.
<Paradox> Kato > you saw what 75 posted
<Kato> I was just agreeing with what he was saying about Robert, lol
<Kato> I skimmed it :P
<Hoikas> I don’t even know what we’re talking about now >.>
<Kato> me neither :P
<BAD> We’re taling about the changes to the GOW structure, and how Dox feel cheated about it.
<BAD> I suspect Dox’s whole attitude lately is becuse of it
<Hoikas> I should probably take some blame, because I talked to Kato and BAD about it but never you, and I usually try to touch base with everyone on stuff like that
<BAD> Also Dx thinks this is all some sortof plan I am hatching
<Paradox> BAD > I’m not the only one
<BAD> Which is not true
<BAD> What does that mean Dox?
<Hoikas> Well, maybe we should at least prove there is no master plan here.
<Paradox> Well it certainly looks like you popped up out of nowhere and are suddenly influencing the structure of the Guild, nearly appointing yourself as a councillor, etc…
<BAD> Your not alonein your insnity?
<Hoikas> BAD: I do see a certain basis for this claim
<BAD> No where?
<Hoikas> Well, your “Time to do this” and “Open Source Uru Plan” topics make it seem a little bit that way
<Hoikas> I only just realized they could be interpreted that way
<BAD> Yeah, like I said.
<Kato> I don’t feel that way BAD, but I can see how someone uninformed wholly would make that decisioned
<BAD> Well, this is what you get when you try to hep out.
<BAD> I have been down this path before.
<Hoikas> this is also probably stemming from the fact that Kato and I have seemingly vanished into fat air
<BAD> I get asked to helpout, and I get involved….
<Hoikas> and with you doing almost everything publicly, well, it could show that
<BAD> I end up trying to do a couple things I think would help out, and I get slammd.
<Hoikas> and it really sucks
<BAD> Well, perhaps, it would be best f I just resigned.
<Hoikas> Kato and I need to start doing a little MORE, I guess
<BAD> Apparantly I hve been stepping on some toes, and frankly, with ll of this hitting me now, I don’t care anymore.
<Hoikas> so it doesn’t look like you’re trying to rule the universe with your master plan :P
<Paradox> As a mod, you’re great… I have no complaints there, you’ve done an excellent job, and you should be commended for that
<BAD> I am on vcation, trying to enjoy it, and I practiclly get attacked.
<BAD> No Dox, it’s all or nothing with me.
<BAD> You don’t like how I do things, then it’stime I moved on.
<BAD> You wanted to put me in my place, good job, you showed me where the door is.
<Paradox> “I don’t like that you wear a blue shirt” does not mean I hate the way you dress…
<Paradox> you’re the one being illogical now
<BAD> Well, this isn’t just criticism.
<BAD> Dox, it’s not about logic. It’s about understanding your situation.
<BAD> I will be able to do nothing effective in the GW.
<BAD> With you around, there wil allways be thatthought in my mind that if I do something, you going to freak out.
<BAD> So no thanks.
<Paradox> That’s your choice
<BAD> Damn right!
<BAD> First thing we ever agreed on
<BAD> I’m going to bed
<Paradox> g’night ABD
<BAD> kato can remove me from the mod status, and see yu all later.
* BAD has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”)
<Kato> …well damn.
<Hoikas> Now I can remove that silly +m
* Hoikas sets mode -m #writers
<vaaht> thank you hoikas
<Tahg> what did vaaht do?
<Hoikas> sorry, but I didn’t know that to do
<Paradox> talked too much
<vaaht> I feel a tad excluded because I was the only one excluded from the chat in a public channel <.<
<Hoikas> the real issue was between BAD and dox
<Paradox> OTOH, a public channel should *never* be muted
<Hoikas> and that just needed to happen IMO
<Hoikas> I usually don’t go to such extremes
<vaaht> hoikas> so what, BAD calls the shots?
<Hoikas> so you have my apologize
<Hoikas> apologizes especially
<vaaht> I was just trying to get you guys to talk a bit more rationally because all you were doing is yelling
<vaaht> *you guys were
<Hoikas> It eventually cooled down a tad
<vaaht> yes, because I said please take a deep breath and calm down
<Hoikas> and you’re right about yelling
<vaaht> and what do I get?
<vaaht> fucking muted