(originally posted at

Oh CyanChat… where do I even begin?

I’d been vaguely aware of CyanChat since first finding Myst/Riven stuff online, back in 2000 or so (anyone else remember Leeloo’s Riven Hints site?), but the first time I actually joined CC was in 2006.
August 2nd, 2006 exactly. The day the first beta invites for MOUL went out. Gadren had posted on UruObsession that there was some sort of party going on in CyanChat, and Cyan’s intern RivenChan was giving everyone gold (guest) status.

So I went to see what was going on, and just kinda never left. There were a bunch of prominent community members in there; Tweek, Alahmnat, RIUM+, chucker, Aloys, and the occasional visit from RivenChan or greydragon.

I should mention that I was 15 or so at this point. I would go to the library at school during lunch and log in to the Java chat, reading chatlogs when I got home, and staying up far too late chatting about pretty much any topic imaginable with the people in CC.

As a programmer, one of the first things I did when I saw the CyanChat protocol spec was to start writing my own CC client. In C# first, then a server in C#, then a rewrite of the C# client, then some hacking on Kirsle’s Perl client, then one in Python, then one in C# to try out the new WPF technology, then a Pidgin plugin in C, then a few more C attempts to make a CC API library, and some C++ stuff, and bugfixes to a Ruby client… I wrote a LOT of CC clients, and it was my defacto “Learn this new language” project :P

By mid-2007, I’d become friends with some of the CC regulars. TW, vaaht, Nisan, M’buhir/Ku’mah, wandering_nomad, Edrick, theclam, Ki’Sak, Novah, Zadok, amonre… It was great with the ongoing Uru Live storylines too, because people would come in to CC from work/school to hear about what was going on in the cavern.

We started doing late night Skype calls at some point over the summer. Looking back, despite all the high-school angst and teenage insecurities and mild depression, that summer is one of my happiest memories. It always feels like the “golden days” of growing up.
It was some sort of crazy and wonderful happenstance that we all ended up in CC that summer and throughout much of the next year.

At some point, I decided to write a bot to transmit between CC and an IRC channel. Originally intended to temporarily work around an IP ban for mistyping something and triggering the language filter, the idea proved popular enough that several people switched to IRC full-time. I feel like that contributed significantly to the slow decline of CC, and I continually blame myself for that :(

As interest in Uru waned after the shutdown, and people got busy with jobs and life after school, the CC population dwindled. Ultimately it came down to only 4 of us and the IRC bot, and even on the IRC side nobody was really talking. After a year of that, I closed my CC client.
CyanChat and the people there were an incredible part of my life for those few years. It really felt like a family moreso than a chat room, and it was really hard to finally accept that most of you were gone and leaving a chat window open wasn’t going to make you come back.
I owe so much of my musical tastes to wandering_nomad and his CyanChatRadio shoutcast streaming.
I never would have completed NaNoWriMo in 2008 if vaaht hadn’t been reading my work and making suggestions. vaaht was a huge part of helping me to accept certain aspects of myself during those years.
I learned so much from Nadnerb, and especially liked our technical discussions and almost-telepathy.
Now everyone is off doing their own stuff, living their lives. I wish I’d made more of an effort to stay in contact outside of CyanChat, but that regret applies to almost everyone I’ve ever known.
There’s talk of shutting down CC, after almost 17 years of being the “official” chat room of the Myst community. I hate to see it go, knowing how much it meant to people and the friendships and relationships that grew as a result. But if nobody is connected, and nobody is talking, is it really worth keeping running?

Empty chairs at empty tables, where my friends will sit no more.

From My Hands

(Cross-posted from GoW Forums)

I… haven’t touched Blender in 2 months.
I haven’t done any meaningful work in Blender is far longer.
It’s sad for me to say that, because I have things that I want to do and ideas that I want to develop.

We’re losing people. I’ve seen more people lose interest over the past 6 months than I have in any other period of Uru. We’ve been given hopes and promises, and now we’re all waiting for something that might never come. Times change and people get busier, and I feel that need to seriously ask myself why I’m still here.

It’s not because I enjoy it: Uru is depressing these days, and I don’t want to build Ages that nobody will ever explore;
it’s not for the community: I’ve seen almost all the good people lose interest, leaving only the idiots on MOUL worshiping their Holy Blue Lords of Cyan;
it’s not for the potential: time killed whatever potential was left in Uru.
It’s not even for Plasma anymore, the more I see of it, the more I realise how much it could be improved and yet there’s no way to do that.

I thought things would be more open when MOULa started, but instead they’re more closed than before. Any incentive to work on stuff is crushed by Cyan’s continued silence, and the overwhelmingly vocal disapproval of many community members. We all have bad days where we ask “Why do I put up with this?”; but when you’re seriously asking yourself that question every time you think of Uru, maybe it’s time to move on. I don’t want to be part of this anymore.

Uru’s dead, more dead now than before MOULa started. I keep wanting things to change, but I can’t keep pretending that they ever will. Cyan can’t make Uru work. They’ve lost direction and fragmented so much that the only thing keeping them in business is rehashing existing games on new platforms. The “Golden era” ended with Prologue, and came to a crashing halt after Myst V. MOUL never managed to bring any of that back.

The future is uncertain. I can say for sure that prpl-uruki will probably never be finished, and libHSPlasma development has mostly stopped as all the developers lost interest. PyPRP2 is up in the air, very dependent on what happens with Blender and whether there’s still enough interest to keep developing it. Without maintenance and support for the current tools, Age builders will lose interest and drift away, and with them goes any lingering hope for Uru’s potential.

For now, we keep waiting… but maybe someday you have to accept that the story’s over.

What we do…

Brought up by Tai’lahr on the MOUL forums, who had a very good point that not many people actually know what we mean when we say that we “hack” Uru/Plasma. Hopefully an explanation will help to dispel some of the fear, doubt, and uncertainty that is being spread.

Prologue ended in February 2004. With the closing of areas such as the hoods and Ae’gura (which weren’t available in the offline game), some people began to look for ways to access those areas in the offline Ages Beyond Myst. All of Uru’s configuration and game files were encrypted, and started jokingly with the phrase “whatdoyousee”.
The night that Prologue shut down, a user by the name of Anonymous54321 posted a function on the Clockwork Orange BBS (COBBS) board that decrypted these files. The decryption was actually quite easy to figure out: we had the files, and we had UruExplorer.exe. UruExplorer has to decrypt those files when it reads them, so by reading the machine code inside UruExplorer.exe, we could figure out what it did to decrypt the files.

Once the xTEA (whatdoyousee) encryption was broken (which means, we were able to decrypt and re-encrypt the files), we had access to the SDL (State Description Language) system. SDL files store the default state of objects in an Age, such as open doors, barriers, and Journey Cloth visibility. Anything that could be turned on and off in the online Vault could be turned on and off using the SDL files for offline Uru.

After a bit of playing with SDL, some people wanted to look more closely at the game logic, the Python scripts that powered interaction. The process was an interesting one. Again using UruExplorer.exe, people traced to where it loaded the Python.pak file. Then, these people wrote documentation for it, byte by byte, as to what the game loaded.
Despite the fall of COBBS in April 2005, I was able to dig up a copy of the original Python hacking thread. This thread is where Python.pak was first looked at, decrypted, unpacked, and edited; and can be read here.

By the time To D’ni was released for free, COBBS members had already written tools to decrypt and edit the SDL and Python files (UruFun and UruPython were both written by Anonymous54321; UruTweak was written by Marrack; and Kirk had a Java program called WYDS’d).
I didn’t join the scene until shortly before Path of the Shell was released, but around the time of To D’ni came the invention of flymode. Flymode brought a lot more attention to COBBS, some of it positive, and some of it negative. It was really just some additions to Uru’s xKI Python file, which was then recompyled and packed back into Python.pak.

At this time, some people were also wondering if it would be possible to add our own meshes and textures to Uru. They began investigating the PRP files, which held the actual game data. This was a very slow process: the PRP files had a packing format, and contained objects. There were over 300 types of objects, and each object had its own format.

Path of the Shell complicated things a bit, since it added even more objects to the PRP files, and also changed the KI system (which was used as the basis for flymode). But the actual encryption didn’t change, so after examining the changes, we were able to continue making progress.

Aside project that was going on at this time was Alcugs, an open-source server for Uru that was written by Almlys,starting the day that Prologue shut down. When Path of the Shell was released, Alcugs made efforts to support it as well as the original online content. Untìl Uru was released in August 2004, around the same time that Alcugs was made publicly available. Most people initially ran Untìl Uru servers, but those wanting Path of the Shell content ran Alcugs.

During the online stuff, work continued on the PRP files, with IngisKahn writing and releasing PRPExplorer. The first view versions just listed the objects, but support quickly grew to viewing, exporting, and replacing textures. A new era of Uru hacking had been born: Texture hacks.
Unfortunately, the online aspect meant that PRP hacks had to be done offline, so that there were no Vault issues or file version mismatches. But as support for PRP hacks grew (and editors and knowledge about more PRP objects), more people started adding things to their offline games, and some servers even offered extra clothing options to players.

In April 2005, ycikamookow and IngisKahn released a video of an Age that they had built using ycikamookow’s custom 3DS Max exporter. Shortly after, the COBBS server was cracked, and all posts were lost. Luckily most of the documentation from the H’uru wiki was retrieved and reposted.

The Myst V Mac Demo came out in August 2005, and within a few days we had used the MachO executable to break the new AES encryption and begin to figure out the changes to the PRP file format. During this time, we had a brief discussion with Colin Bonstead at Cyan, who wished us luck with the Uru hacking, and said he wished that Cyan could give us some help in our quest to build custom content.
Almlys had also been quietly working on a new project too. A Blender exporter plugin for Uru, which was released in late October 2005. At first, it could create basic geometry. Within weeks support had been added for textures and lights. All of the Blender plugin features depended on the documentation of the PRP object formats.

Over time, tools changed… The PRP Blender plugin became known as PyPRP, which forked in April 2008 to become GoW PyPRP.
PRPExplorer fell mostly to the wayside as Zrax’s libPlasma work allowed us to create tools like PageEditor and PRPShop.
During D’mala, Cyan accepted some small patches from the community and released them as Untìl Uru updates; but many people saw it as “too little, too late”, as some servers had been running with modified content and bugfixes for years.
Untìl Uru‘s global authentication server was shut down, leaving shard owners to either implement their own, or shut down their shards.
Myst Online: Uru Live was released, giving us yet another slightly different PRP packing format, more PRP objects, new encryption methods, but also a better understanding of some PRP objects.
Myst Online: Uru Live spawned the Guilds, and then shut down. A year and a half later we have no further progress on an online Uru, but the tools and documentation for creating custom content have improved dramatically.

So when we say “hacking Uru”, what does it mean?

It means that we are reading the assembly machine code from UruExplorer.exe to find out how it works, and how it reads the PRP objects. Then we are documenting what it reads, and finding out what those values represent.

It means that we are taking existing content and changing it to add new features (such as flymode).

It means that we are using the knowledge we have extracted as a way to write tools that allow us to edit and create content for Plasma.

For some of us, this quest stopped being about Uru and its community a long time ago, the quest now is to understand Plasma and to create new places to explore, ideally in an online environment. To us, an open-source Plasma would allow us to take what we know about the engine and use to it add new functionality and enhance old functionality (when you read the machine code, you tend to see a lot of places where things could be done better, or where bugs could be fixed).
However, without the source code we cannot add new functionality to the actual engine, we can only document its current functionality and use that to create tools.

Mysterium Vancouver?

Okay, I’ve been promising a bunch of updates about a bunch of things on here. Sorry, maybe later… :P

This post focusses on an idea that has slowly been growing since Mysterium 2009 with the live video feed. With the announcement that Mysterium 2010 would be in Minneapolis (and a number of people wouldn’t be able to attend), I thought about it a bit more, got some feedback from Odo, and decided to put this out for review.

Would people be interested in a Mini-Mysterium in Vancouver (BC, Canada)? One weekend, probably offset just before or after the official Mysterium. Consider it an alternative Mysterium for people who aren’t able to travel from the northwest out to the east for a convention.

Feedback, ideas, etc.?

Moderation Discussion

I’m posting my view on this here after seeing comments from some people about threads not being locked vs. being locked.

In real life, what you say cannot be unsaid: you say it, and it’s out there forever. You can apologize for it and make amends, but what you said will always be out there. My view is that the Internet is much the same. When you make a post, that post is forever. You should not be allowed to go back and remove it or edit it (barring adding information, slight clarifications, and fixing language errors). Nor should moderators go and delete a post simply because it is too “flamy” or too “off topic”.

In the COBBS days, there were flamewars that would continue on for 15 pages of highly personal attacks before the administrator would even offer a warning to the people involved. Yet now, people are sending angry messages to moderators because of a single inflammatory post?

Arguments happen, both in real-life and online. Often it is by looking back at those arguments that we are able to make better judgements in the future. By removing those arguments, you are effectively rewriting history. I’m fairly sure we would all agree that is a very bad idea!

I do understand situations such as the MOUL Forums, where Cyan must maintain a policy in order to keep their future ventures open. While I find the moderation there oppressive and inconsistent, I am able to at least understand what rules the moderators were trying to follow.

People have probably noticed that one of my preferred method of presenting argument is with raw chatlogs. This gives people the chance to make their own decisions and make up their own minds about what happened. By keeping the flamewar threads, we allow people to do the same thing, and form their own opinions about the issues.

Opinions? Please discuss…


As promised, the most recent political argument about GoW. Note to new members: your opinions aren’t welcome and we’ll keep arguing internally no matter what you think. This sort of logic is why I left in the first place.

<Paradox> 75th Trombone: Looking around the forums
<Paradox> 75th Trombone: And one word pops into my head: BUREAUCRACY
<Paradox> 75th Trombone: I see a very unfriendly announcement about needing Guild Representatives. I see stuff about reorganizing the guild and voting to remove someone from a the post of Councilor of S&V, whatever that means, and everywhere I look it’s red tape and middle-managing
<Lontahv> Rather than dealing with the door for now.
<Hoikas> Tell him to shut the fuck up, bastard
<Paradox> 75th Trombone: So what’re the chances of them waking up and realizing that no one gives a crap about Robert’s Rules of Order and just getting to some Writing?
<Paradox> Except that he’s right…
<Hoikas> no one asked for his fucking opinion
<Paradox> The forums are a mess, and we’re not giving any sort of useful information to new members
<Paradox> and your attitude doesn’t help either… “we didn’t ask his opinion, so he should shut up”… what a nice way to greet new members
<Hoikas> I’m not greeting him.
<Lontahv> uhm… he’s not really right about everything.
<Hoikas> I just didn’t ask his opinion
<Paradox> Why are we still arguing about these useless politics?
<Hoikas> I don’t even know who the hell he is
<Hoikas> if he wants to fix it, then tell him to fix it
<Paradox> How?
* Hoikas is obviously not in the best of moods
<Hoikas> I don’t know, post on the forum?
<Hoikas> Then I can opt out of his opinion
<Paradox> Nobody even knows what’s going on… it basically looks like BAD is the person in control of everything
<Paradox> 75th Trombone: Yeah, that’s good. who’s in charge, this BAD guy?
<Lontahv> Where is this? CC?
<Paradox> yeah
<Lontahv> hmm *runs there*
<BAD> Heh, Ilove hw someone can walk in and criticize the GOW and we got one person buying completely into it and one person getting pissed off about it.
<BAD> Oh wait
<BAD> Now I get the joke
<Paradox> I thought you wanted to make changes so that things could get done? I don’t see anything getting done…
<BAD> Well, Dox, it sometimes takes time to get people organized.
<Hoikas> Well, I’m sitting on my ass doing nothing like how most seem to like it
<BAD> So you can tell your friend, that the GOW is doing the best it can with what was given to it.
<BAD> Which is nothing
<Hoikas> whenever anyone tries to do anything it’s hell on earth
<Hoikas> the power is in the hands of the Reps…
<Hoikas> If they opt to do nothing, then nothing shall be done
<BAD> Exactly.
<BAD> What do you want done Dox?
<BAD> You left the administration of theGOW.
<Paradox> yeah, because it entirely distracts from the actual goals of GoW
* SFT ( has joined #writers
<Paradox> The point is to build Ages… and to work at helping other build Ages
<BAD> That’s a crock of shit.
<Lontahv> Shrinking the GuildCouncil was the worst thing I can think of. >.>
* SFT is now known as SeventyFifthTbn
<SeventyFifthTbn> Hello.
* Hoikas sets mode +m #writers
<Paradox> yo 75
<BAD> Howdy
* Hoikas sets mode -m #writers
<BAD> Come to bash us in person?
<SeventyFifthTbn> Hmm, I didn’t mean to bash anyone.
<BAD> Well you seem to be doing a ood job of it.
<BAD> good*
<Paradox> Oh wonderful BAD… how welcoming you are to new members who have a few comments
<Paradox> “come to bash us in person?”
<SeventyFifthTbn> Well, y’know, things happen. Thought a newbie’s perspective on how welcoming a community is or is not might be appreciated on some level.
<BAD> Well, I am sorry, Dox, but I call things s I see them.
<Hoikas> certainly sounded like bashing, and you relayed it to us like “oooo, look at what’s been said behind your back”
<SeventyFifthTbn> Not that I intended anyone to see my CC comments anyway.
<Lontahv> >.> Just keep this civil. We are not the GuildOfSlackers even though we had a blood transfusion from them. :P
<Paradox> I’m planning to post this log FYI…
<BAD> Well, your intentions seem to be to tell everyone in CC that the GOW is ran by me, and that I do a terrible job.
<Lontahv> BAD isn’t even a Councilor yet…
<BAD> Dox, you do as you please, you always do anyways.
<SeventyFifthTbn> No. I asked if you ran it because I saw your name at the top of some administratey threads.
<Lontahv> He’d just a MOD.
<Paradox> Well as far as I can tell, admins should at least be open to a few criticisms
<BAD> Dox, don’t act naive.
<SeventyFifthTbn> And I didn’t say you were bad at anything, just that your tone was harsh, and you’re not exactly proving me wrong here.
<Kato> SFT: I just want to be constructive here, I’m not trying to take sides or anything–but how do you think we should run the GoW differently then we do now?
<BAD> Your not proving me wrong either.
<SeventyFifthTbn> I don’t know how you run the GoW. It seems a bit unfathomable at the moment, to be honest. I just highly doubt that any subgroup of the already-small Uru community needs as many layers of bureaucracy as I saw on my first five minutes on the forum tonight.
<Lontahv> Yes. The GoW has been wracking their brains about what should be done. Maybe you could take a stand on how it should be run. It’s very hard to know what people want when we just hear what they don’t want.
* mb ( has joined #writers
<Hoikas> Well, people don’t like one person in power.
<SeventyFifthTbn> Well here’s what I want: Forum admin, maybe two levels of moderators, like other forums. What more do you need? And that’s an honest question
<Hoikas> People all want to be able to vote on everything
<Hoikas> When you put stuff up for vote, no one votes
<Paradox> Adam > People don’t care… as you’ve seen demonstrated
<Hoikas> we’re damned either way
<BAD> We have been trying to organize the administration to be as out of the way as possible. It’s been a struggle with the amount of differing opinions.
<Lontahv> Yes
<SeventyFifthTbn> I mean, if people just ignore the bureaucracy and do cool stuff regardless of it, why not just ditch the bureaucracy, have some moderators, and not go to all the trouble?
<Paradox> Why do we need councillors? *What* do they accomplish?
<Hoikas> then we have all of the other Guilds bashing us >.>
<Hoikas> like I said… Damned
<SeventyFifthTbn> Are other Guilds like this?
<SeventyFifthTbn> Oh wait, I think i get it now
<Lontahv> Yes
<BAD> THeir jobs are outlined.
<Hoikas> somewhat
<Paradox> I preferred it when it was the Guild of Anarchy
<Tahg> Justin
<Paradox> BAD > and are any of them doing their jobs?
<Justin> Yes?
<BAD> Dox, no kidding.
<Tahg> have you considered the bridge in Teledahn?
<SeventyFifthTbn> This is all borne of an effort to model real-life guilds on the D’ni story.
<Hoikas> Well, there’s nothing really to do…
<Paradox> Wait… how can they be doing their jobs when you’re missing a councillor?
<Justin> hmmm
<Lontahv> The GoMa is _so_ like this that it makes us look like anachists.
<Tahg> I think that’s a physical that you have to kick, to unstick it
<BAD> Yes, Kato is, andHoikas is still involved with developing tools.
<BAD> That leaves the open slot.
<Hoikas> (actually Hoikas isn’t… He just watches right now)
<Tahg> and it definitely rotates on an axis
<SeventyFifthTbn> I get it. This is all an attempt to be an actual government like people imagine D’ni was
<Justin> I’ll have to check that out
<Paradox> 75 > bingo
<BAD> SFT, yeah you found us out.
<Hoikas> can we stop referencing Duck Knee for a damn minute
<Lontahv> no. :P
<Paradox> Adam > maybe if it wasn’t relevant
<Paradox> but it is
<Hoikas> I hate it when people bring that crap up when it’s obviously not applicable
<Hoikas> like it’s N/A now
<BAD> Well guess I’ll put back on my vilains hat and skulk off.
<Paradox> because people “expect” this sort of structure
<Lontahv> Yes
<Hoikas> yes, but that has nothing to do with d’ni
<Lontahv> Even if they bash it.
<BAD> Dox, your the one with expectations.
<Paradox> I had expectations that this might work out without falling on its face in the mud…
<BAD> Wll so far it hasn’t.
<Hoikas> which it has
<Paradox> instead I see less and less actually happening
<Hoikas> (not fallen)
<BAD> Ages are being created? Yes or no?
<Hoikas> Really? I see a good bit happening.
<Lontahv> For instance: Who would admin the GoW Uru server when Cyan releases the code? Are dictator-admins better than elected officials?
<Paradox> BAD > yes…, at GoW… not so much
<BAD> Toos are being improved? Yes or no?
<Hoikas> Maybe a bit of a slowdown here and there, but that’s only natual
<SeventyFifthTbn> How many active members does the GoW forum have?
<Paradox> The tools have nothing to do with GoW… tools are separate
<Lontahv> Dox> They have to do the the GoW
<BAD> So waht you are saying is that the GOW has no use?
<Hoikas> Then why is their development so GoW-central?
<BAD> Then lets shut the board down and see how many new ages get made.
<SeventyFifthTbn> How many active members does the GoW forum have?
<Paradox> The tools are used by the GoW… their development happens regardless of GoW
<BAD> Over 600
<Hoikas> BAD: active…
<BAD> mombers, and probably 50 or so active.
<Paradox> he said active…
<SeventyFifthTbn> 50 active members!! How many representatives are you trying to elect?
<BAD> depends on what you consider active.
<BAD> They are not elected.
<Hoikas> Paradox: What’s the point in developing a tool that no one will use?
<SeventyFifthTbn> Okay, appoint?
<Paradox> I don’t
<BAD> Did you actually read any of the info?
<Paradox> I develop a tools that I will use
<Paradox> if someone else finds it useful, good for them
<Hoikas> well, that’s you
* Zrax seconds that
<Hoikas> and Zrax
<BAD> dox, you personal stuff is just that
<Tahg> same here
<BAD> your*
<Tahg> well, I don’t actually develop tools…
<Zrax> I’ll respond to other people’s input on my tools, but even if I’m the only one using them, I’ll keep making them >.>
<Paradox> Adam > me and Zrax and Tahg… who are the only people actively doing *any* tool work at the moment
<Tahg> but if I did, they would be foremost for my own use
<BAD> Except for tagh
<BAD> You just don’t getit Dox.
<Lontahv> I develop tools to help the community. Currently, I have the tools I’d use. I want to make tools others with find easy to use.
<BAD> YOur fighting a battle that has no pint
<BAD> point*
<Paradox> and what are you fighting for?
<Tahg> people will always complain, so I tend to just not cater to them in the first place
<BAD> And ou pick a time when I am on a crappy keyboard to do it.
<BAD> I am not fighting
<SeventyFifthTbn> Okay, you have 13 “representatives” and are asking for more, when the site has 50 active members.
<SeventyFifthTbn> QED.
<SeventyFifthTbn> I have to go, see y’all later.
* SeventyFifthTbn has quit (“ ajax IRC Client”)
<Zrax> >.>
<Lontahv> >.>
<Tahg> GoW has more than that doesn’t it?
<BAD> See ya
<BAD> Itdoes
<Hoikas> bad bye :)
<Lontahv> BAD is standing up the the GoW IMO… whatever the GoW is. :P
<Tahg> idk, I can’t really tell what active means
<BAD> But why correct him?
<Justin> bye
<Zrax> Tahg: people who post more than you and I :P
<Tahg> lol
<Hoikas> that’s a good definition >.>
<BAD> I was saying bye to sft
<Tahg> I post once in a blue moon
<Lontahv> Zrax is actually quite active. The quality of his posts should be taken into consideration. :P
<BAD> Yet you hang out on the GOW chat almost constantly.
<Tahg> nah
<Tahg> this is our main channel
<Tahg> if you hadn’t noticed, we often don’t talk about GoW things here
<Zrax> True, but that’s also just where we happen to be… If not here, it would be #PRP or #libPlasma or one of the others
<BAD> THis channel is for Writers.
<Tahg> only when we have company
<Tahg> like now
<Tahg> right, that’s what I was saying Zrax
<BAD> Whatever, the point is you help out so you are at least passing members f the GOW>
<Lontahv> I wish the GoW would stop getting bombed. If we can change our form so we can keep doing what we’re doing with less flames I’d be very happy.
<BAD> If you didn’t at lest have a passing interest in the group, you wouldn’t help out
<Tahg> I don’t help out GoW
* mb has quit (“ ajax IRC Client”)
<Paradox> I have an interest in Plasma, building tools, and building Ages… which can happen with or without the GoW
<BAD> It’s not important, I don’t care how the group is ran.
<Tahg> right
<BAD> Dn’t kid yourselves.
<Paradox> it happened at COBBS, Alcugs, TNT, AB… I can build Ages whether GoW exists or not
<BAD> Then do that somewhere else.
<Tahg> why?
<BAD> Don’t post on the forum and don’t answer peoples questions in here
<Lontahv> I think the main divide is “The GOW” and its members. I try to help its members.
<BAD> If you don’t like the GOW than wh do you do that?
<Tahg> I help people when I have a suggestion :\
<Tahg> I don’t care about affiliation
<BAD> Right, but you don’t hae to do that.
<BAD> ave*
<Tahg> no, I don’t
<BAD> Right, so you don’t hate theGOW.
<Tahg> there are lots of things we don’t have to do, but they are nice things and we do them anyway
<Tahg> no?!
<BAD> You like helping people out on the site.
<Tahg> when did I say that?
<BAD> You didn’t, but yu guys are acting like the GOW is some kind of malevolent thing.
<Tahg> the group is immaterial to me, personally
<Tahg> I help out people, not groups
<Hoikas> still, you usually end up doing so through the group.
<BAD> That’s very zen of you, but that is nto how things work usually.
<Tahg> perhaps
<Lontahv> The GoW isn’t important. The people of the GoW staying around and interested is. If the GoW (however imperfect) breaks down the people will scatter.
<BAD> So imagine their was no GOW, who would you help out?
<Tahg> I don’t visit many forums these days
<Paradox> BAD > I would keep helping out AB
<Tahg> I would help out here
<BAD> the two or three people in this room?
<Tahg> yes
<BAD> Exactly.
<Hoikas> This room is the GoW however
<Tahg> that’s 99% of who I help out anyway
<BAD> The GOW draws others in to build ages.
<Paradox> Tahg hasn’t been a community person since 2004-ish >.>
* Hoikas points to the /topic
<Paradox> BAD > so it AB
<Tahg> this channel just happens to be #writers
<Paradox> did*
<Tahg> must I talk somewhere else to seem impartial?
<BAD> Yes Dox, and now where are those members?
<BAD> In the GOW.
<Tahg> I talk here because we just happen to meet on this channel
<Paradox> On GoW… because AB was shut down and partially merged with GoW
<BAD> You guys just love to be in your impartial little worlds.
<Lontahv> Bah… why do we need a damn guild anyway. If we weren’t a guild we could just be ourselves. It’s this darned “guild” title that makes people expect things.
<Tahg> we’ve had several in the past, and likely will have others in the future
<Hoikas> Tahg: But this is still the GoW Channel, so you’re helping people through the GoW
<Paradox> Lon > partly… yes
<Hoikas> but if you don’t want to see it that way, then fine
<Hoikas> I’m tired of this idiotic argument
<BAD> Well i the real world when you support something, you show acceptance of it.
<Hoikas> it’s like arguing why the color blue was named blue.
<Tahg> I don’t consider Dox, Zrax, Lon, Nad, Adam to be members of the GoW or any other guild
<BAD> It is.
<Tahg> they are fellow programmers
<BAD> Tht’s great
<Paradox> BAD > so Tahg is automatically a GoW-helper just because you say so?
<Lontahv> Look, we wouldn’t be arguing if Cyan hadn’t re-born the guilds. THIS IS WHY DUNNY DIED. >.<
<Hoikas> the toilet is dead?
<Paradox> Tahg is H’uru… H’uru is not the GoW
<BAD> wow, it’s neck deep in here.No he is a GOW helper, BECAUSE he helps people on the GOW!
<vaaht> dox isn’t standard GoW o.o
<Hoikas> OH TEH NOES! I’ve gotta shit!
<Paradox> BAD > so does Andylegate
<BAD> Ideed!
<Paradox> so do a whole bunch of other people who aren’t Gow
<Paradox> Is MarkD now GoW because he helped me once?
<BAD> Andy IS a member of the GOW!
<BAD> Yes!
<Zrax> You can help out a guild without necessarily being a member… I help out one of the Catholic churches in town sometimes, but that doesn’t make me Catholic >.>
<Paradox> Andy would consider himself a member of GoMa
<Paradox> … so because of a single email, MarkD is a GoW member? o.O
<BAD> zrax> The GOW accepts anyone whohelps out. They are all considered members.
<Paradox> “The GOW accepts” *who* is “The GoW”?
<Tahg> if I had to be part of a guild, I’d consider myself part of GoIM
<BAD> Has he posted ot the forum?
<Hoikas> The GoW is not a person :P
<Paradox> But it’s run by people
<Zrax> Also, guilds are not exclusive… Being a member of one does not mean you can’t also be a member of another
<Paradox> How else could it “accept”
<BAD> Zrax, of course.
<Lontahv> Yes! His name is GuildOfWriters and his name is red. ;P
<Hoikas> it is a collective group of people working toward or supporting the creation of ages
<Paradox> “They are all considered members” By whom?
<Paradox> I certainly don’t consider MarkD a GoW member
<Tahg> what is this argument about anyway?
<Paradox> nor do I consider Tahg a GoW member
<BAD> Dox, youreally like plaing dumb don’t ou.
<Zrax> If the people of the guild accept contributors as members, that’s their own right and privelege, but that doesn’t mean one is required to consider themselves part of said guild
<Hoikas> Tahg: <Hoikas> it’s like arguing why the color blue was named blue.
<BAD> you*
<Paradox> Tahg > at this point, your guess is a good as mine… we started with some criticisms… and now we’re defining what it means to be a GoW member
<BAD> It’s simple.
<BAD> If I had the power, I would shutthe wole GOW down.
<Lontahv> I don’t really know. What is a damn guild anyway… looks to me that “guild” is another name for “sect” or faction. And ya know what… having factions and sects isn’t the greatest thing. :P
<Paradox> BAD > and then what would you do?
<BAD> Let you ake over.
<BAD> take
<Lontahv> lol
<Paradox> Oh, thanks
<BAD> You seem to know everything.
<BAD> Please, show us how it is done.
<BAD> What would you do if he GOW did not exist?
<Paradox> As I’ve already said at least 5 times… I would be back at COBBS or Alcugs or TNT or AB
<BAD> Doing wha?
<vaaht> BAD> so, if I manage to model a single teacup for someone, then I’m automatically GoW, even though I consider myself GoL (Guild of Linguists)?
<Paradox> If GoW didn’t exist, those would all still exist
<BAD> what*
<Paradox> Writing tools to build Ages
<Paradox> as I have been for the past 4 years
<Tahg> my work on Uru existed long before I knew about the GoW
<BAD> Well, cobbs has been quiet for a couple years now… SO how would that help you?
<Paradox> vaaht > according to BAD, yes…
<Zrax> s/knew about the GoW/the GoW existed/
<vaaht> what an idiot
<Tahg> the point is we DON”T NEED A GROUP/FORUM to continue are work
<Tahg> s/are/our/
<BAD> You know what? YOu guys can ave your little party
<BAD> You don’t.
<BAD> Exactly.
<Tahg> how come you don’t understand taht we do this for ourselves?
<BAD> Selfish pricks.
<BAD> I understand it
<Lontahv> We need a forum. We don’t need a title that gets us burned.
<Paradox> IRC > Forums
<Zrax> If we did it purely for ourselves, we wouldn’t share our work
<BAD> Thank you Zrax.
<Lontahv> I’m going to go off for a bit.
<Tahg> yes, but if we waited for an audience, we would have the work done that we do now
<Tahg> wouldn’t*
<BAD> An audience?
* Lontahv is now known as Lontahv|afk
<Tahg> other people to use the tools we make
<BAD> is your hed really that far up your ass?
<Tahg> what are you talking about?
<BAD> So everyone else is cattle o you?
* Justin has quit (“ ajax IRC Client”)
<BAD> they don’t help your work?
<Tahg> wt* are you saying??!
<BAD> You don’t need other programers, and feedback?
<Tahg> we do
<BAD> It’s best you are alone i your efforts?
<Tahg> we have our group
<Paradox> and we have those here
<BAD> Yes insular group.
<BAD> Very productive.
<Hoikas> yet the vast majority of the users are *not* here
<Tahg> we don’t need nonprogrammers to motivate us to program
<BAD> I didn’t say you did.
<BAD> Don’t put words in my mouth.
<Paradox> Don’t put words in ours
<Tahg> what are you getting at then, cause that certainly was what it seemed like to me
<BAD> I haven’t.
<BAD> I asked questions
<BAD> I am getting at that you have benefited from the people you seem to have no interest in.
* RIUM ( has joined #writers
<Tahg> how so?
<BAD> Never mind.
<BAD> I am done with this.
<BAD> Forget the whol thing.
<Paradox> @RIUM > the log upto a few seconds ago is on my blog… if you want to catch up >.>
<BAD> Who brought this up anyways?
<Zrax> Not having interest in a group does not mean that you don’t have interest in it’s members… I bring up the church from earlier — the reason I help out there is because several of its members are friends of mine
<Paradox> Hoikas IIRC… after I posted some comments from a new member
<BAD> Oh yeah, Dox did.
<Tahg> this is *exactly* why I don’t visit the forums much, becuase of all the bickering that goes on
<Hoikas> what is, the circus where you bring in everyone to watch the stunts?
<Paradox> sure Adam, if that’s how you see it
<Hoikas> it’s exactly what you’re making it
<BAD> Yeah Tahg it’s constantly like tis.
<BAD> this*
<Tahg> I have an interest in things that interest me, “politics” as I call this all, does not normally interest me
<Hoikas> telling us “Oooh, look at what 75th is saying behind your back.” then calling him in here
<Hoikas> now you’re calling RIUM in here
<Paradox> I’m not calling anyone in
<BAD> Tahg, wht does a mind like yoursfind interesting?
<Tahg> I like to program
<Paradox> and I’m willing to post the log of CC as well if you’d like
<Tahg> and so I do
<RIUM> hmm? I just came in here ’cause I heard people were in here :)
<Hoikas> If you *really* wanted to make a point, then you would have relayed the message in a less derogatory fashion
<BAD> I am sure ox and his friends are having a good oldlaugh t our exense.
<Zrax> RIUM: Good timing, LOL
<Tahg> when I see people post with programming issues, I help them
<Hoikas> Well then maybe I was mistaken, RIUM
<Tahg> it’s as simple as that
<vaaht> hoikas> shush, we came in here of our own volition <.<
<Hoikas> but when I see “<Paradox> @RIUM > the log upto a few seconds ago is on my blog… if you want to catch up >.>” I think we’re being ganged up on
<Hoikas> vaaht: You were in here beforehand :P
<BAD> Well when Dox sees a problem…..
<RIUM> But if you’d prefer me to not be here… o.o
<Tahg> stay
<BAD> Your welcome here Rium
<Paradox> I saw criticisms that I thought you might be interested in knowing so that you could look at what new members see when they join GoW
<Hoikas> Never said I didn’t
<vaaht> nads and/or doxy invited me a little while ago, and I came in because I’d *eventually* like to make small contributions, but I’m mostly going to listen for a bit so I’m not a newbie nuisance <.<
<Paradox> but apparently you don’t care what new members see
<Hoikas> Paradox: Do you know what I saw when you relayed that?
<Paradox> and your reaction to criticism is “<Hoikas> Tell him to shut the fuck up, bastard”
<vaaht> hoikas> I also started listening because I heard doxy was arguing with an idiot <.<
<Hoikas> “Oooh, look what people are saying behiond your back.”
<Tahg> we don’t consider anyone to be a nuisance just because they ask questions
<BAD> Dox, I know for a fact you don’t care either, so what’s your deal?
<Hoikas> And I do not appreciate that or people talking behind my back.
<Hoikas> So what kind of reaction did you expect?
<Paradox> Would you rather I talked about you behind your back and didn’t tell you?
<Hoikas> Me to fall to the floor begging for forgiveness and what I can do to fix the ailing problem?
<Paradox> I can do that too if you’d prefer
<Hoikas> No.
<BAD> Heh, yeah, why change a habit?
<Hoikas> You tell it to my face.
<Paradox> and no, I don’t expect you to remedy the problem istantly
<vaaht> hoikas> as far as I know, doxy didn’t say anything about you <.<
<Hoikas> You tell it to me in a constructive way also
<Tahg> what *is* the problem anyway?
<BAD> Who knows?
<Hoikas> vaaht: I didn’t say dox was
<vaaht> uhm, you implied it <.<
<Hoikas> I said dox made it look like 75th was
<Paradox> So new members are supposed to magically find this room?
<Hoikas> You’re reading too much into my statements
<vaaht> okay, hoikas, BAD, doxy, can you please stop your arguing for one second?
<Hoikas> New members should post or PM their issues
<BAD> THis has turned into a who is more stupid debate
<Tahg> can’t we just get back to building ages, or making tools, or whatever it is that we normally do then?
<BAD> Go ahead.
<Hoikas> Not randomly flood them somewhere and have someone quote them
<Paradox> I at least expected that the site admins could consider what new members might see as their first experience on GoW
<vaaht> as someone who has only ever been involved with mysterium for like…half a year, and otherwise has lurked in this community for a while…
<vaaht> honestly, all the bickering and flaming and calling names and pointing fingers…it’s super annoying
<BAD> Yeah keep going with that angle DOx, your on the high ground….
<vaaht> that is why I left the mysterium committee
<Paradox> and this is why I left the GoW politics
<vaaht> shut up BAD
<BAD> vaaht, Dox caused this.
<Paradox> Yep, all my fault
<Tahg> and why I left the forums almost entirely
<vaaht> yeah, yeah, call someone who cares
<BAD> vaaht, your not helping.
<Paradox> like everything that ever goes not according to your master plan
<vaaht> honestly, this is the reason I *don’t* get involved in the community <.,
<vaaht> * <.<
<BAD> Master plan?
<vaaht> because you guys can’t figure out how to get along
<Hoikas> “<vaaht> honestly, all the bickering and flaming and calling names and pointing fingers…it’s super annoying”
<Zrax> <vaaht> honestly, all the bickering and flaming and calling names and pointing fingers…it’s super annoying
<BAD> Please, expalin that one to me Dox?
<Hoikas> but look what you’re doing
* Zrax agrees with vaaht’s statement
<vaaht> and honestly, with the amount of bickering, I would rather be *outside* of the main community, than in it amongst all this bickering <.<
<BAD> vaaht, good oint
<BAD> point*
<vaaht> BAD> as far as I can tell, you’re in the main community and with the GoW
<vaaht> hoikas sounds like he is too
<BAD> This is actually my fault, now that I think about it.
<vaaht> I know doxy is not
<Paradox> BAD > well there’s a misconception that you’re the admin of the forum… you came in and decided to shuffle all of the structure around, you nearly appointed yourself as head of everything…
<vaaht> and I have no reason to see otherwise besides this conversation since I have never bothered with the politics
<vaaht> *shrugs*
<BAD> Heh, yeah that must mean I have sme kind of master plan.
<vaaht> anyways, that’s all I had to say
<BAD> vaaht> So your saying you have no idea what this is about? So you feel that your interjections are helping?
<Hoikas> Paradox: Can you define “you nearly appointed yourself as head of everything…”
<Hoikas> I’m not sure what that’s in reference to.
<BAD> Dox is pissed that I may get a councilor position.
<BAD> THat is what this is all about.
<vaaht> BAD> I am saying all I’ve heard from GoW is problems, so I have never bothered getting involved
<BAD> So it’s my fault
<Paradox> I’m mad that you basically came in and obliterated two councillow positions
<vaaht> and also, that mysterium has always been the exact same way
<BAD> And there’s a bit of truth.
<vaaht> so I have no faith in the ability of this *community* to work together
<vaaht> I have faith in a few small groups doing great things
<BAD> vaaht, shut up yourself.
<BAD> Your not helping at all.
<vaaht> and honestly, only a few of those people are in here, but I won’t name names
<Hoikas> Paradox: why diodn’t you vent this during the restructure
<BAD> Dox, I have no master plan, I try to help out, and people have asked me to do so.
<vaaht> BAD> yes, I’m sure my call for you guys to take a deep breath and calm down is so terrible <.<
<Hoikas> (or maybe you did, I just remember you giving up)
<Paradox> IIRC I was halfway across the country during most of the restructure
<Paradox> and I never even saw the restructure document… it went from Lontahv to Trylon to Bad
<Hoikas> vaaht: You’re doing a good job of it by calling people idiots and telling them to shut up
<BAD> You told meto shut up, and you have said you have no ideas what’s going on, yet you think you are some kind fo voice of reason?
<Hoikas> Paradox, now we’re getting somewhere…
<Hoikas> I know the document was posted
<vaaht> hoikas> because you and BAD are the ones that keep flaming
<Hoikas> Lemme check the timeframe
<BAD> It was voted on Dox, and it was discussed a lot before that.
<vaaht> I suggest *everyone* step away from this chat for about 10 minutes, take a deep breath, and come back and discuss this calmly
<Paradox> It’s quite possible that it was posted and I overlooked it… that would have been a mistake on my part
<Hoikas> vaaht: I love how I’m suddenly flaming when the only person I flamed was 75
<vaaht> otherwise, all you guys are just yelling for no reason
<BAD> vaaht, stay out of it it is not your concern.
<Hoikas> and it could have been on ours too Dox
<Paradox> Hoiaks > what did 75 do to deserve flaming?
<Hoikas> that’s why I’m checking
<Hoikas> *sigh*
<Hoikas> back to the whole behind the back ordeal
<BAD> 75th, was a victim of you posting his words here.
<vaaht> BAD> it *is* my concern because I would like to contribute one day <.<
<Hoikas> Re: Proposal structure upgrade
<Hoikas> Postby BAD on Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:01 pm
<BAD> If you approched it in a different fasion we probably could have avoided this arguemen.\
<vaaht> but at this rate, it’s not going to be in your big group that can’t get along
<Paradox> I posted it exactly as 75 had posted it in CC
<Hoikas> that was the first post of BAD’s document
<BAD> vaaht, seriously, stay out of this.
<vaaht> what are you going to do to me if I don’t?
<vaaht> kick me?
<vaaht> ban me?
* Hoikas sets mode +m #writers
<Paradox> yeah vaaht… we don’t like new members… stay out of this
<Hoikas> sigh can we discuss the real issue now?
<BAD> You could have softened the blow, at least, or PMed it to Hoikas or Kato.
<Paradox> Kato saw it
<Paradox> and agreed with it
<Hoikas> okay, so that was the date of the first document
<Hoikas> I can post a screenie of the post
* Hoikas gives voice to ddfreyne Lontahv|afk RIUM
<BAD> Hey Dox we seem to be making some headay, whydon’t you turn the sarcasm off?
<Paradox> Adam > I believe you… I admit that I probably overlooked it or didn’t pay much attentio nto it when it was posted
<Hoikas> Paradox: when were you accross the country?
<Kato> what did i see?
<Paradox> vaaht: can you tell them from me, I’m glad that their group is so special that they exclude the newcomers?
<Paradox> Hoikas > June/July… long before then
<Hoikas> okay
<BAD> Dox, stop instigating.
<Paradox> Kato > you saw what 75 posted
<Kato> I was just agreeing with what he was saying about Robert, lol
<Kato> I skimmed it :P
<Hoikas> I don’t even know what we’re talking about now >.>
<Kato> me neither :P
<BAD> We’re taling about the changes to the GOW structure, and how Dox feel cheated about it.
<BAD> I suspect Dox’s whole attitude lately is becuse of it
<Hoikas> I should probably take some blame, because I talked to Kato and BAD about it but never you, and I usually try to touch base with everyone on stuff like that
<BAD> Also Dx thinks this is all some sortof plan I am hatching
<Paradox> BAD > I’m not the only one
<BAD> Which is not true
<BAD> So?
<BAD> What does that mean Dox?
<Hoikas> Well, maybe we should at least prove there is no master plan here.
<Paradox> Well it certainly looks like you popped up out of nowhere and are suddenly influencing the structure of the Guild, nearly appointing yourself as a councillor, etc…
<BAD> Your not alonein your insnity?
<Hoikas> BAD: I do see a certain basis for this claim
<BAD> No where?
<BAD> Oh?
<Hoikas> Well, your “Time to do this” and “Open Source Uru Plan” topics make it seem a little bit that way
<Hoikas> I only just realized they could be interpreted that way
<BAD> Yeah, like I said.
<Kato> I don’t feel that way BAD, but I can see how someone uninformed wholly would make that decisioned
<Kato> *conclusion
<BAD> Well, this is what you get when you try to hep out.
<BAD> I have been down this path before.
<Hoikas> this is also probably stemming from the fact that Kato and I have seemingly vanished into fat air
<BAD> I get asked to helpout, and I get involved….
<Hoikas> and with you doing almost everything publicly, well, it could show that
<BAD> I end up trying to do a couple things I think would help out, and I get slammd.
<Hoikas> and it really sucks
<BAD> Well, perhaps, it would be best f I just resigned.
<Hoikas> nah
<Hoikas> Kato and I need to start doing a little MORE, I guess
<BAD> Apparantly I hve been stepping on some toes, and frankly, with ll of this hitting me now, I don’t care anymore.
<Hoikas> so it doesn’t look like you’re trying to rule the universe with your master plan :P
<Paradox> As a mod, you’re great… I have no complaints there, you’ve done an excellent job, and you should be commended for that
<BAD> I am on vcation, trying to enjoy it, and I practiclly get attacked.
<BAD> No Dox, it’s all or nothing with me.
<BAD> You don’t like how I do things, then it’stime I moved on.
<BAD> You wanted to put me in my place, good job, you showed me where the door is.
<Paradox> “I don’t like that you wear a blue shirt” does not mean I hate the way you dress…
<Paradox> you’re the one being illogical now
<BAD> Well, this isn’t just criticism.
<BAD> Dox, it’s not about logic. It’s about understanding your situation.
<BAD> I will be able to do nothing effective in the GW.
<BAD> With you around, there wil allways be thatthought in my mind that if I do something, you going to freak out.
<BAD> So no thanks.
<Paradox> That’s your choice
<BAD> Damn right!
<BAD> First thing we ever agreed on
<BAD> I’m going to bed
<Paradox> g’night ABD
<Paradox> BAD*
<Hoikas> cya
<BAD> kato can remove me from the mod status, and see yu all later.
* BAD has quit (“ ajax IRC Client”)
<Kato> …well damn.
<Hoikas> Now I can remove that silly +m
* Hoikas sets mode -m #writers
<vaaht> thank you hoikas
<Tahg> what did vaaht do?
<Hoikas> sorry, but I didn’t know that to do
<Paradox> talked too much
<vaaht> I feel a tad excluded because I was the only one excluded from the chat in a public channel <.<
<Hoikas> the real issue was between BAD and dox
<Paradox> OTOH, a public channel should *never* be muted
<Hoikas> and that just needed to happen IMO
<Hoikas> I usually don’t go to such extremes
<vaaht> hoikas> so what, BAD calls the shots?
<Hoikas> so you have my apologize
<Hoikas> apologizes especially
<Hoikas> *sigh*
<vaaht> I was just trying to get you guys to talk a bit more rationally because all you were doing is yelling
<vaaht> *you guys were
<Hoikas> It eventually cooled down a tad
<vaaht> yes, because I said please take a deep breath and calm down
<Hoikas> and you’re right about yelling
<vaaht> and what do I get?
<vaaht> fucking muted